49 replies to this topic

[socrates]

Last Thursday I signed up for the sundown marathon to be held on 26th May which is just about 1 months time away. This is my first marathon and I have only done previously 2 half AHM marathons in 2010 (1 hr 43) and 2011 (1 hr 53 min).

I run 5 to 6 times a week each time doing quite comfortably about 10 to 14 km and the total for a week is about 60 to 70 km or so. The furthest I have run is in march this year which I went about 27 km in 2 hr 10 mins.

Do I need to do more long distance runs like 30 km? Would appreciate any advice anybody can give me for the preparation I need to do for the sundown marathon in 1 months time. Thanks.

[kohpapa]

yo, bro socrates, the wise one..welcome..sundown marathon training planning in action..for 1-month

after knowing the latest info on part of the marathon route includeds also 20km West Coast Highway which is a 3-lane flyover carriageway, upslope. undulating highway roads, some as rough as ECP service roads where trucks frequent.. bear in mind, these roads are for container trucks of 16-20 wheelers....commonly in US they are called interstate trucks..theses roads some up, some down..hill runs shall be the best practice..

ok, 21k - flat road, 21k - hill (not really mount faber type).. and uncle got these two training places..

21k flat road run obviously shall be like ntuc u runs organised 22/4 run-350 21km (very much like sundown 21km, without the marina barrage cross over to gardens by the bay east), and the other 21k will be where the ghurkas (training camp)/cedar girls (middle distance school champs homeground) at mount venon & ex-Bidadari Muslim Cemetery respectively.."twin peak" hill..of course, that Cemetery..haunted..uncle knows where..and mount venon one..cremation and ashes in condo-like structures..more haunted..uncle also knows.. looks like uncle got to run cemetery grounds..3am..<shiver>..no more geylang and ECP.. because Sundown has no ECP route..like previous years..please don't ask uncle to run West Coast Highway.. traffic police will shoo you away..crazy running along container trucks.. of course, uncle biked sundown West Coast Highway familiarization once against these trucks and will not do silly thing..very very dangerous..and run..suicide mission..you know..

21k (road) + 21k (hill)..shall be uncle's training for the next two weeks.. must get use to hill training.. a bit anaerobic..but, looks like this shall be needed for sundown..of course, uncle shall start with 24-hour recovery between the 21km.. but gradually up to 6-hour back to back..meaning 21k (sunset) + 21k (sunrise) soon..like after 2-week..

since there is a sundown final lead run of 30k on 6/5 sunday @playground..7am.. uncle shall use that as 30k (road) 4:30 pacing training.. of course, uncle on the next day must continue the 21k (hill)...reason, there is no ECP type of road run..fun days of easy ECP and cheating just U-turn half way before fort road toilet is over..r his time everyone at 2012 sundown must run the real challenging one..good to take part in in very fair and competitive..and with the kenyans and internationals invited in action..

today start lah, action on training plan..21k (hill)..the weakest event..like in tri training.. always spend more time on the weakest event first..coupled with uncle's regular tri OD weekly cross training of 1.5-3k swim and 50-100k biking.. because some sgRunners bro offers challenge after bintan triathlon 26/5 OD + 26/5 42km sundown.. who can do?.. of course only uncle can do.. as Age Group Triathlete (1/2 ironman trained), 42km seasoned marathoner.. but uncle still looking for sponsor and do the action, not talk.. maybe uncle shall find sgRunners O$P$ and Pay&Pay (aka bro SweeSayLim) for credit and put on sponsor tee.."Sponsored by Pay&Pay O$P$ - No Repent! Just Do It!".. of course, after bintan OD (25/5) and sundown (26/5).. uncle may land up at the top cemetery hill.. why? O$P$ cannot Pay&Pay, must die Pain Pain..head at bedok reservoir floating to warn residents there.. better repent..uncle's head may become next GElection 2016 early bird message by Pay&Pay O$P$..

so while you sleep, uncle trains silly..

since, uncle kena ban as usual at sundown forum with yellow card for talking bullshits..looks like uncle got to stay here in this forum, focus on training and relax and talk silly here..ok, bro.. uncle needs to visit haunted twin peak hills for next two hours.. had not been there for a year..hope to encounter new supernatural ones to make friends..and will tell stories..if got

bro socrates..if you're like uncle one so silly fit one.. can let other sane and good sgRunners bros and sis.. they're the real runners.. if half of things bro you don't understand..uncle understands.. good job on your latest training credentials..respect.. bye bye

Edited by kohpapa, 23 April 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[sky61]

Ur weekly mileage is good. Just keep it up and u should complete it in around 4hrs for ur maiden marathon. Maybe do a 34km to see if ur body bonks after 30km (glycogen fully depleted). I did 3hr 57mins in tokyo n my timings are quite similar to u. Have fun n most importantly be relaxed, dont do it with a time in mind, unnecssary stress

[auron]

good and simple advise from sky61. sure can finish in good time... unless aiming for super timing like 3 to 3.5 hours.

another thing, since its your first, try out all those gels in one of your long run. at least you know whether your stomach can take it or not.

[socrates]

Thanks for the advice guys, I think I will just keep up with my running routine and try to do 1 or 2 30 km before the sundown to tell myself mentally I can do it. A few quetions:

1.) I guess I should taper off 1 week before the sundown and just do 10 km runs on the 19th and 20th may ?

2.) I actually don't drink throughout my runs and I am quite used to it. I did not drink at all during the AHM 21 km runs I took part in until I finished the run. I am sure I will have to stop and drink for the 42 km. At what point (20 km, 30 km mark?) should I pause to drink and how much should I take in?

3.) How about food intake? Have dinner at 8 pm and then eat a few bananas at 11 pm before the run flags off? not too keen to try the gels though.

[sky61]

1) taper 1-2wks before race day, do shorter distance of 5-7km but do it fast, so that ur muscles still have the fast twitch memory,even as u are letting them rest for the big day.

2) i would advise u to drink small little amounts at the 7-10km onwards rather than wait until 20km, 30km to drink ur first sip. doing a full marathon is a total different ball game from running a fast half marathon. u'll have to control ur urge to sprint at the get go, and preserve energy. hence start nourishing ur body early, rather than wait for it to tell u its thirsty,by then its too late...

3) eat 2-3hrs before any run, allowing the food to digest.

[chemhy]

good and simple advise from sky61. sure can finish in good time... unless aiming for super timing like 3 to 3.5 hours.

another thing, since its your first, try out all those gels in one of your long run. at least you know whether your stomach can take it or not.

i am preparing my first marathon as well, is it useful to have gels during the run?

[philip]

Thanks for the advice guys, I think I will just keep up with my running routine and try to do 1 or 2 30 km before the sundown to tell myself mentally I can do it. A few quetions:

1.) I guess I should taper off 1 week before the sundown and just do 10 km runs on the 19th and 20th may ?

2.) I actually don't drink throughout my runs and I am quite used to it. I did not drink at all during the AHM 21 km runs I took part in until I finished the run. I am sure I will have to stop and drink for the 42 km. At what point (20 km, 30 km mark?) should I pause to drink and how much should I take in?

3.) How about food intake? Have dinner at 8 pm and then eat a few bananas at 11 pm before the run flags off? not too keen to try the gels though.

Thanks for the advice guys, I think I will just keep up with my running routine and try to do 1 or 2 30 km before the sundown to tell myself mentally I can do it. A few quetions:

1.) I guess I should taper off 1 week before the sundown and just do 10 km runs on the 19th and 20th may ?

2.) I actually don't drink throughout my runs and I am quite used to it. I did not drink at all during the AHM 21 km runs I took part in until I finished the run. I am sure I will have to stop and drink for the 42 km. At what point (20 km, 30 km mark?) should I pause to drink and how much should I take in?

3.) How about food intake? Have dinner at 8 pm and then eat a few bananas at 11 pm before the run flags off? not too keen to try the gels though.

I find that your absolute weekly mileage is good but you are limited by your distribution. You tend to clock your distance in pieces of 10 - 14km w/o the crucial long run. If there's only 1 workout which I can utilize for marathon, i would still fall back on the long runs (those you do from 25 right up to the 30s km) simply becoz the brain-muscle connection (this is not psychology) works in a sort of an "anticipation model".

Simply put it, how long you can hold a desire pace (provided its well-selected aka no way you can hold a 10km race pace for your marathon race pace) is dependant on how often you actually practise with that pace over a prolong distance. This way, there's actually memory "imprints" of it into your brain and during your marathon, the brain allows the muscle to continue working at that intensity by anticipating how much distance is left.

In the absence of such training (long runs etc), once the brain with its continuous feedback from the other systems (muscle, thermal, fuel etc) feels that the continuation of this pace will actually upset the balance, it will purposely induce fatigue to stop you from continuing, pretty much explaining a common trend among runners who don't execute adeqaute long runs up to the 30kms regions getting cramps at 30-32km region, sometime earlier.

Time's a bit tight but if you can, get in 2 or 3 runs building up from 27 to 30 n then 33 or 34. Looking at your Half-marathon race time, you do have a certain level of fitness, there's no need 2 use the general 3-wk taper. 2 weeks would be sufficient, buying u extra time for 1 more long run. But remember, your absolute weekly mileage should not go up much anymore. Hence should you practise your 30km this week, compute your workload in such a way that your weekly mileage still stay in the 60-70km region.

Above all, have fun

[socrates]

Thanks for the advice Philip, try to do a 30 km this sat, sun or tues. hopefully the weather is good and not too hot.

[kohpapa]

wha.. sat. morning rain.. luckily just after uncle's sunrise run 21k (4am-7am)..completed..

just recovered and rested.. full breakfast..full lunch.. great nap.. should be good to continue the sunset 12k hill run (6pm-8pm)

that will be uncle's continuing personal training plan as preparation for sundown.. notice this few days.. weather in the day time is hot.. no really great for run..so why run "After Sleep" training.. when uncle should run "Sleep Can Wait" sundown..so uncle felt this sunset-sunrise format (ongoing for 2 weeks) has been great..

controversial one is why hill runs.. not because that west coast highway is not flat, but slopes up and down, at start..60degree gradient upslope.. and at U turn.. similar challenge upslope.. remember this is a highway used for container trucks..and road pavements are not smooth..and roads are never flat.. even nicoll highway is not flat.. for those who have run nicoll highway..almost all races seem to have nicoll highway run..

runner's training.. easy run and tempo run.. for endurance. always..easy on heart rate..shall not go into heart rate method.. can refer to other forums or bro philip's specialty subject - wear to monitor heart rate.. simply summarise, if runners want to run further and further with distance.. must have..and every runner will definitely do this one..oxygen more, good for fat-burning..slow-twitched muscles training.. teach slow-twitched muscles to last longer..distance

of course, uncle's level of fitness goes to hill runs, farleks.. for strength and power.. oxygen less, heart rate goes up..fast-twitched muscles training.. teach fast-twitched muscles to last longer.. stregth and power..

so why hill runs in sundown.. simply.. fatigue training for "Sleep Can Wait".. evening to next morning.. do you see green trees and plants in the night.. no right?.. why did science teacher always teach about photosynthesis.. green plant take co2 and expel o2 with sun as the catalyse.. so sundown is running with no sun.. less o2 but plenty of co2 released by manking and co2 emission from other sources..and normal human body o2 level supposed to be at its bottom.. as it prepares body to go to sleep, so hormones can operate for functional repair and recovery.. and body has been taught to Sleep after 1245am..normally.. right?

so why hill runs.. running in less oxygen.. so if have done this training.. this will be the "secret" to overcome that fatigue run against Sleep condition.. while body tells you to shut down oxygen.. legs got to run against that shut-down of less oxygen.. only anaerobic running method can provides you that additional distance.. so uncle's 21k hill runs.. if can provide 10-15km extra..why not, just for sundown

against fatigue.. sodium depletion (sweat loss) and hydrogen depletion (lactic acid accummulation).. all are common in endurance run.. so energy protein bars and energy gels are always recommended.. supplement with water, bananas (for protein).. so fuel belts and hydration for mixed protein&carbo are seasoned endurance runners secrets.. have you have experiences carrying fuel belts and hydration bottles during run practices?..stuff with energy protein bars and energy gels..and run with them adds weight.. and if those have not.. can try.. but if never.. never mind..because as newbie marathon runner..don't need to worry..

why?..sundown hydration points are standard.. 2km water..next 2km 100plus..the pattern repeats.. so energy drinks no issue.. but when comes to critically your body runs out of glycogen (critical protein and carbo needed for run)..mucle cramps (typically at legs, some are shoulder aches)..why? body looks for additional glycogen..strip protein (fats convert to protein to carbohydrates for immediate "critical stress for quick fuel energy") from muscles in legs..see runners wobble and falling..understand what just happened.. "bonking" or "face the wall of china".. if that happens, all endurance runners will always tell you.. will power has stopped.."can run, but the legs give up the will to continue"..

so, protein bars and energy gels will come in to tackle this fatigue in its extreme state, before "bonking" take them..only through training..you shall know which distance.. only when someone has truly run beyond 1/2 marathon distance.. critically.. some could be 18km..others could be 25km.. some could be 33km.. everyone has a critical point.. so for uncle.. 25km.. better take energy gel 1 to avoid "bong".. at 33km.. better take energy gel 2 to avoid "bong".. so that's why important to know where sundown energy gel distribution points.. uncle's unofficial 20km.. and 3*km.. ok, no need to bring personal one.. if only 30km and 35km.. uncle better prepare personal and must tasted and make sure no side effects like vomiting or others.. and even energy gels will be given during sundown.. uncle will still put on fuel belt, must tie and secure properly as to be used only at before uncle's "bong" distance..25km.. it is been recommended that energy gel for sundown has to be caffeine by uncle to the organiser.. "need to drink kopi to last through night".. isn't this "Sleep Can Wait"..and organiser with Maxifuel has not decided to have caffeine.. knowing in some veteran runners like uncle.. caffeine induces "stroke-like" side effects.. so will find out more on the last 30km sundown lead run.. uncle shared at the sundown forum on this is an important concern..right, bro Philip, you are the expert?

ok, uncle needs to take a pre-snack, energy gel with fuel belt.. no need water bottle.. since this sunset run is 21km run at ECP.. water fountains.. shall taste maxifuel mixed berry..2nd time.. uncle tasted maxifuel mixed berry (better taste than lime) at one of the sunrise runs 12km Mount Faber Hill run..

so after 21km run at ECP.. eat dinner (2 to 3 hours before Sundown practice).. anytime between 1245-0800.. activities that have cycling, running and even walking.. as long as it is aerobic or anaerobic..must be practised.. so sunrise 10km macRitchie MR25 loop run..something like hill run shall be good for anaeroic run..and to reach there, uncle must cycle 25km there and back 25km.. why not start at 3am.. and complete by 8am.. 5-hour training..for Sundown, why not..

so, any training for "After Sleep".. no, rest and recovery.. until sunset..r u ready..till sunrise..that's uncle 1-month countdown to sundown..and so far end of 2nd week training plan action and share.. not talk so much and no action.. so uncle close week 1 run 77km.. today shall close week 2 run 62km with 6-hour recovery between sunset and sunrise practice in week 3 and 4 (19/5).. shall be closing the gap.. and cutting weekly distance.. tapering in progress.. hopefully on the actual week leading to the race day.. 3-day no run just carbo loading.. and on race day.. do a 42.2km with no recovery.. because on 27/5 1245am.. this is the real one..no more recovery in training.. so the 12-hour recovery.. 6-hour recovery.. 3-hour recovery is served to improve with better preparation - physicall, mentally, and adapting to the final countdown of Sundown "Sleep Can Wait"..

this coming 7-day provides great opportunity all for "Sleep Can Wait" training..leading to sundown last lead run 30km..7am - 10am.. makes full use of all the training..plus check shoes on long runs, any blisters, injury.. if yes, rest.. just say.. if sundown this year not ready.. there are races of endurance types..like AHM ultra..and surely everyone can do "After Sleep" endurance runs much easier.. but, "Sleep Can Wait" one.. will be the most challenging.. now you know why.. once a year..and in Asia one of a kind night marathon.. got it.. uncle respect and salute you for finishing..in this 2012 Sundown challenge..very different from previous years..very fair and will determine only the abled runners.. don't forget..the kenyans and the internationals will be challenged for this one.. and you are one of the abled runners for this race..to be challenged..respect

uncle wishes all well, and bro philip..sports scientist.. for advising.. great to have a moderator to bring us together, sharing..sgRunners must have great moderators to lead and facilitate..then any deviation from the norm of running method or training plans not recommended shall be advised..sometime even training plan that will lead to danger zone will have to say "no way"..

ok, uncle proceeds with personal training plan.. bye bye..yo, ECP fort road toilet..Drink up..ready.. r u ready for sunset run... RUN!

btw, bro socrates.. uncle may have met you at sundown 25km lead run.. it was raining very heavy that day.. and your 27km run sharing and you just signed up for sundown talk with uncle and sundown pacer.. sounded familiar.. if you remembered at F2 carpark shed at the end of loop 1.. raining very hard with thunder and lightning.. and resting for maxifuel's drink (mixed berry drinks).. and if you were enquiring what's sundown..and which forum to go to.. and sundown pacer says,"go sgRunners..shall got people talk about training for sundown".. and if you are bro socrates.. uncle knew you since day 1 when you put up this forum thread.. what a small world.. uncle the crazy dude that you also talked to.. is moi..uncle, the most negative rated sgRunners here.. very unfortunate of you to meet me here.. please give negative ratings..thank u!

Edited by kohpapa, 28 April 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[philip]

wha.. sat. morning rain.. luckily just after uncle's sunrise run 21k (4am-7am)..completed..

just recovered and rested.. full breakfast..full lunch.. great nap.. should be good to continue the sunset 12k hill run (6pm-8pm)

that will be uncle's continuing personal training plan as preparation for sundown.. notice this few days.. weather in the day time is hot.. no really great for run..so why run "After Sleep" training.. when uncle should run "Sleep Can Wait" sundown..so uncle felt this sunset-sunrise format (ongoing for 2 weeks) has been great..

controversial one is why hill runs.. not because that west coast highway is not flat, but slopes up and down, at start..60degree gradient upslope.. and at U turn.. similar challenge upslope.. remember this is a highway used for container trucks..and road pavements are not smooth..and roads are never flat.. even nicoll highway is not flat.. for those who have run nicoll highway..almost all races seem to have nicoll highway run..

runner's training.. easy run and tempo run.. for endurance. always..easy on heart rate..shall not go into heart rate method.. can refer to other forums or bro philip's specialty subject - wear to monitor heart rate.. simply summarise, if runners want to run further and further with distance.. must have..and every runner will definitely do this one..oxygen more, good for fat-burning..slow-twitched muscles training.. teach slow-twitched muscles to last longer..distance

of course, uncle's level of fitness goes to hill runs, farleks.. for strength and power.. oxygen less, heart rate goes up..fast-twitched muscles training.. teach fast-twitched muscles to last longer.. stregth and power..

so why hill runs in sundown.. simply.. fatigue training for "Sleep Can Wait".. evening to next morning.. do you see green trees and plants in the night.. no right?.. why did science teacher always teach about photosynthesis.. green plant take co2 and expel o2 with sun as the catalyse.. so sundown is running with no sun.. less o2 but plenty of co2 released by manking and co2 emission from other sources..and normal human body o2 level supposed to be at its bottom.. as it prepares body to go to sleep, so hormones can operate for functional repair and recovery.. and body has been taught to Sleep after 1245am..normally.. right?

so why hill runs.. running in less oxygen.. so if have done this training.. this will be the "secret" to overcome that fatigue run against Sleep condition.. while body tells you to shut down oxygen.. legs got to run against that shut-down of less oxygen.. only anaerobic running method can provides you that additional distance.. so uncle's 21k hill runs.. if can provide 10-15km extra..why not, just for sundown

against fatigue.. sodium depletion (sweat loss) and hydrogen depletion (lactic acid accummulation).. all are common in endurance run.. so energy protein bars and energy gels are always recommended.. supplement with water, bananas (for protein).. so fuel belts and hydration for mixed protein&carbo are seasoned endurance runners secrets.. have you have experiences carrying fuel belts and hydration bottles during run practices?..stuff with energy protein bars and energy gels..and run with them adds weight.. and if those have not.. can try.. but if never.. never mind..because as newbie marathon runner..don't need to worry..

why?..sundown hydration points are standard.. 2km water..next 2km 100plus..the pattern repeats.. so energy drinks no issue.. but when comes to critically your body runs out of glycogen (critical protein and carbo needed for run)..mucle cramps (typically at legs, some are shoulder aches)..why? body looks for additional glycogen..strip protein (fats convert to protein to carbohydrates for immediate "critical stress for quick fuel energy") from muscles in legs..see runners wobble and falling..understand what just happened.. "bonking" or "face the wall of china".. if that happens, all endurance runners will always tell you.. will power has stopped.."can run, but the legs give up the will to continue"..

so, protein bars and energy gels will come in to tackle this fatigue in its extreme state, before "bonking" take them..only through training..you shall know which distance.. only when someone has truly run beyond 1/2 marathon distance.. critically.. some could be 18km..others could be 25km.. some could be 33km.. everyone has a critical point.. so for uncle.. 25km.. better take energy gel 1 to avoid "bong".. at 33km.. better take energy gel 2 to avoid "bong".. so that's why important to know where sundown energy gel distribution points.. uncle's unofficial 20km.. and 3*km.. ok, no need to bring personal one.. if only 30km and 35km.. uncle better prepare personal and must tasted and make sure no side effects like vomiting or others.. and even energy gels will be given during sundown.. uncle will still put on fuel belt, must tie and secure properly as to be used only at before uncle's "bong" distance..25km.. it is been recommended that energy gel for sundown has to be caffeine by uncle to the organiser.. "need to drink kopi to last through night".. isn't this "Sleep Can Wait"..and organiser with Maxifuel has not decided to have caffeine.. knowing in some veteran runners like uncle.. caffeine induces "stroke-like" side effects.. so will find out more on the last 30km sundown lead run.. uncle shared at the sundown forum on this is an important concern..right, bro Philip, you are the expert?

ok, uncle needs to take a pre-snack, energy gel with fuel belt.. no need water bottle.. since this sunset run is 21km run at ECP.. water fountains.. shall taste maxifuel mixed berry..2nd time.. uncle tasted maxifuel mixed berry (better taste than lime) at one of the sunrise runs 12km Mount Faber Hill run..

so after 21km run at ECP.. eat dinner (2 to 3 hours before Sundown practice).. anytime between 1245-0800.. activities that have cycling, running and even walking.. as long as it is aerobic or anaerobic..must be practised.. so sunrise 10km macRitchie MR25 loop run..something like hill run shall be good for anaeroic run..and to reach there, uncle must cycle 25km there and back 25km.. why not start at 3am.. and complete by 8am.. 5-hour training..for Sundown, why not..

so, any training for "After Sleep".. no, rest and recovery.. until sunset..r u ready..till sunrise..that's uncle 1-month countdown to sundown..and so far end of 2nd week training plan action and share.. not talk so much and no action.. so uncle close week 1 run 77km.. today shall close week 2 run 62km with 6-hour recovery between sunset and sunrise practice in week 3 and 4 (19/5).. shall be closing the gap.. and cutting weekly distance.. tapering in progress.. hopefully on the actual week leading to the race day.. 3-day no run just carbo loading.. and on race day.. do a 42.2km with no recovery.. because on 27/5 1245am.. this is the real one..no more recovery in training.. so the 12-hour recovery.. 6-hour recovery.. 3-hour recovery is served to improve with better preparation - physicall, mentally, and adapting to the final countdown of Sundown "Sleep Can Wait"..

this coming 7-day provides great opportunity all for "Sleep Can Wait" training..leading to sundown last lead run 30km..7am - 10am.. makes full use of all the training..plus check shoes on long runs, any blisters, injury.. if yes, rest.. just say.. if sundown this year not ready.. there are races of endurance types..like AHM ultra..and surely everyone can do "After Sleep" endurance runs much easier.. but, "Sleep Can Wait" one.. will be the most challenging.. now you know why.. once a year..and in Asia one of a kind night marathon.. got it.. uncle respect and salute you for finishing..in this 2012 Sundown challenge..very different from previous years..very fair and will determine only the abled runners.. don't forget..the kenyans and the internationals will be challenged for this one.. and you are one of the abled runners for this race..to be challenged..respect

uncle wishes all well, and bro philip..sports scientist.. for advising.. great to have a moderator to bring us together, sharing..sgRunners must have great moderators to lead and facilitate..then any deviation from the norm of running method or training plans not recommended shall be advised..sometime even training plan that will lead to danger zone will have to say "no way"..

ok, uncle proceeds with personal training plan.. bye bye..yo, ECP fort road toilet..Drink up..ready.. r u ready for sunset run... RUN!

btw, bro socrates.. uncle may have met you at sundown 25km lead run.. it was raining very heavy that day.. and your 27km run sharing and you just signed up for sundown talk with uncle and sundown pacer.. sounded familiar.. if you remembered at F2 carpark shed at the end of loop 1.. raining very hard with thunder and lightning.. and resting for maxifuel's drink (mixed berry drinks).. and if you were enquiring what's sundown..and which forum to go to.. and sundown pacer says,"go sgRunners..shall got people talk about training for sundown".. and if you are bro socrates.. uncle knew you since day 1 when you put up this forum thread.. what a small world.. uncle the crazy dude that you also talked to.. is moi..uncle, the most negative rated sgRunners here.. very unfortunate of you to meet me here.. please give negative ratings..thank u!

wha.. sat. morning rain.. luckily just after uncle's sunrise run 21k (4am-7am)..completed..

just recovered and rested.. full breakfast..full lunch.. great nap.. should be good to continue the sunset 12k hill run (6pm-8pm)

that will be uncle's continuing personal training plan as preparation for sundown.. notice this few days.. weather in the day time is hot.. no really great for run..so why run "After Sleep" training.. when uncle should run "Sleep Can Wait" sundown..so uncle felt this sunset-sunrise format (ongoing for 2 weeks) has been great..

controversial one is why hill runs.. not because that west coast highway is not flat, but slopes up and down, at start..60degree gradient upslope.. and at U turn.. similar challenge upslope.. remember this is a highway used for container trucks..and road pavements are not smooth..and roads are never flat.. even nicoll highway is not flat.. for those who have run nicoll highway..almost all races seem to have nicoll highway run..

runner's training.. easy run and tempo run.. for endurance. always..easy on heart rate..shall not go into heart rate method.. can refer to other forums or bro philip's specialty subject - wear to monitor heart rate.. simply summarise, if runners want to run further and further with distance.. must have..and every runner will definitely do this one..oxygen more, good for fat-burning..slow-twitched muscles training.. teach slow-twitched muscles to last longer..distance

of course, uncle's level of fitness goes to hill runs, farleks.. for strength and power.. oxygen less, heart rate goes up..fast-twitched muscles training.. teach fast-twitched muscles to last longer.. stregth and power..

so why hill runs in sundown.. simply.. fatigue training for "Sleep Can Wait".. evening to next morning.. do you see green trees and plants in the night.. no right?.. why did science teacher always teach about photosynthesis.. green plant take co2 and expel o2 with sun as the catalyse.. so sundown is running with no sun.. less o2 but plenty of co2 released by manking and co2 emission from other sources..and normal human body o2 level supposed to be at its bottom.. as it prepares body to go to sleep, so hormones can operate for functional repair and recovery.. and body has been taught to Sleep after 1245am..normally.. right?

so why hill runs.. running in less oxygen.. so if have done this training.. this will be the "secret" to overcome that fatigue run against Sleep condition.. while body tells you to shut down oxygen.. legs got to run against that shut-down of less oxygen.. only anaerobic running method can provides you that additional distance.. so uncle's 21k hill runs.. if can provide 10-15km extra..why not, just for sundown

against fatigue.. sodium depletion (sweat loss) and hydrogen depletion (lactic acid accummulation).. all are common in endurance run.. so energy protein bars and energy gels are always recommended.. supplement with water, bananas (for protein).. so fuel belts and hydration for mixed protein&carbo are seasoned endurance runners secrets.. have you have experiences carrying fuel belts and hydration bottles during run practices?..stuff with energy protein bars and energy gels..and run with them adds weight.. and if those have not.. can try.. but if never.. never mind..because as newbie marathon runner..don't need to worry..

why?..sundown hydration points are standard.. 2km water..next 2km 100plus..the pattern repeats.. so energy drinks no issue.. but when comes to critically your body runs out of glycogen (critical protein and carbo needed for run)..mucle cramps (typically at legs, some are shoulder aches)..why? body looks for additional glycogen..strip protein (fats convert to protein to carbohydrates for immediate "critical stress for quick fuel energy") from muscles in legs..see runners wobble and falling..understand what just happened.. "bonking" or "face the wall of china".. if that happens, all endurance runners will always tell you.. will power has stopped.."can run, but the legs give up the will to continue"..

so, protein bars and energy gels will come in to tackle this fatigue in its extreme state, before "bonking" take them..only through training..you shall know which distance.. only when someone has truly run beyond 1/2 marathon distance.. critically.. some could be 18km..others could be 25km.. some could be 33km.. everyone has a critical point.. so for uncle.. 25km.. better take energy gel 1 to avoid "bong".. at 33km.. better take energy gel 2 to avoid "bong".. so that's why important to know where sundown energy gel distribution points.. uncle's unofficial 20km.. and 3*km.. ok, no need to bring personal one.. if only 30km and 35km.. uncle better prepare personal and must tasted and make sure no side effects like vomiting or others.. and even energy gels will be given during sundown.. uncle will still put on fuel belt, must tie and secure properly as to be used only at before uncle's "bong" distance..25km.. it is been recommended that energy gel for sundown has to be caffeine by uncle to the organiser.. "need to drink kopi to last through night".. isn't this "Sleep Can Wait"..and organiser with Maxifuel has not decided to have caffeine.. knowing in some veteran runners like uncle.. caffeine induces "stroke-like" side effects.. so will find out more on the last 30km sundown lead run.. uncle shared at the sundown forum on this is an important concern..right, bro Philip, you are the expert?

ok, uncle needs to take a pre-snack, energy gel with fuel belt.. no need water bottle.. since this sunset run is 21km run at ECP.. water fountains.. shall taste maxifuel mixed berry..2nd time.. uncle tasted maxifuel mixed berry (better taste than lime) at one of the sunrise runs 12km Mount Faber Hill run..

so after 21km run at ECP.. eat dinner (2 to 3 hours before Sundown practice).. anytime between 1245-0800.. activities that have cycling, running and even walking.. as long as it is aerobic or anaerobic..must be practised.. so sunrise 10km macRitchie MR25 loop run..something like hill run shall be good for anaeroic run..and to reach there, uncle must cycle 25km there and back 25km.. why not start at 3am.. and complete by 8am.. 5-hour training..for Sundown, why not..

so, any training for "After Sleep".. no, rest and recovery.. until sunset..r u ready..till sunrise..that's uncle 1-month countdown to sundown..and so far end of 2nd week training plan action and share.. not talk so much and no action.. so uncle close week 1 run 77km.. today shall close week 2 run 62km with 6-hour recovery between sunset and sunrise practice in week 3 and 4 (19/5).. shall be closing the gap.. and cutting weekly distance.. tapering in progress.. hopefully on the actual week leading to the race day.. 3-day no run just carbo loading.. and on race day.. do a 42.2km with no recovery.. because on 27/5 1245am.. this is the real one..no more recovery in training.. so the 12-hour recovery.. 6-hour recovery.. 3-hour recovery is served to improve with better preparation - physicall, mentally, and adapting to the final countdown of Sundown "Sleep Can Wait"..

this coming 7-day provides great opportunity all for "Sleep Can Wait" training..leading to sundown last lead run 30km..7am - 10am.. makes full use of all the training..plus check shoes on long runs, any blisters, injury.. if yes, rest.. just say.. if sundown this year not ready.. there are races of endurance types..like AHM ultra..and surely everyone can do "After Sleep" endurance runs much easier.. but, "Sleep Can Wait" one.. will be the most challenging.. now you know why.. once a year..and in Asia one of a kind night marathon.. got it.. uncle respect and salute you for finishing..in this 2012 Sundown challenge..very different from previous years..very fair and will determine only the abled runners.. don't forget..the kenyans and the internationals will be challenged for this one.. and you are one of the abled runners for this race..to be challenged..respect

uncle wishes all well, and bro philip..sports scientist.. for advising.. great to have a moderator to bring us together, sharing..sgRunners must have great moderators to lead and facilitate..then any deviation from the norm of running method or training plans not recommended shall be advised..sometime even training plan that will lead to danger zone will have to say "no way"..

ok, uncle proceeds with personal training plan.. bye bye..yo, ECP fort road toilet..Drink up..ready.. r u ready for sunset run... RUN!

btw, bro socrates.. uncle may have met you at sundown 25km lead run.. it was raining very heavy that day.. and your 27km run sharing and you just signed up for sundown talk with uncle and sundown pacer.. sounded familiar.. if you remembered at F2 carpark shed at the end of loop 1.. raining very hard with thunder and lightning.. and resting for maxifuel's drink (mixed berry drinks).. and if you were enquiring what's sundown..and which forum to go to.. and sundown pacer says,"go sgRunners..shall got people talk about training for sundown".. and if you are bro socrates.. uncle knew you since day 1 when you put up this forum thread.. what a small world.. uncle the crazy dude that you also talked to.. is moi..uncle, the most negative rated sgRunners here.. very unfortunate of you to meet me here.. please give negative ratings..thank u!

Uncle, i really dun get what questions you want to ask leh zzzzz

[socrates]

thanks kohpapa for your advice though i am trying to understand what you are trying to tell me but I can pick out good points from your essay.

Today I did a 34 km in 3 hr 6 mins which is the longest I have ever ran starting at 5.25 pm. My average pace was 5'29 per kilometer and I tried to go a constant pace throughout. Stopped 3 times for a short while due to traffic lights and when I met a friend then took a 3 min pitstop at about 19 km when I started to feel more tired, bought a gatorade from a provision shop and downed most of it and then resumed the run. The gatorade seemed to help and I managed to keep a constant pace to hit 34 km. Did not feel like bonking feeling or hitting the wall at the 30 km + mark and the body felt okay except for maybe the knees ached a little but nothing too bad. In fact felt better here than the AHM 21 km when at the end felt really tired and was perspiring buckets but I think that might be because I increased the pace towards the end while in this run I kept to a constant pace. Felt good and I think I could have gone on to finish the 42 km. I hope to do another a long run next weekend.

Any other advice from the experts here? Do the sundown provide bananas ? Should I aim to do a full 42 km in my practise runs ? should I try gels or energy bars?

Appreciate all advice. thanks guys.

My training in the last week

Mon: 11.5 km
Tues; 13 km
Wed: 10 km
Thurs: 11.5 km
Fri; 5.5 km
sat: 34 km

And the data from today



Distance km
time
pace
1
5:29
5'29"/km
2
10:50
5'21"/km
3
16:44
5'54"/km
4
22:06
5'22"/km
5
27:33
5'27"/km
6
32:57
5'24"/km
7
38:29
5'32"/km
8
44:00
5'31"/km
9
49:39
5'39"/km
10
54:56
5'17"/km
11
1:00:33
5'37"/km
12
1:06:01
5'28"/km
13
1:11:37
5'36"/km
14
1:17:10
5'33"/km
15
1:22:55
5'45"/km
16
1:28:09
5'14"/km
17
1:33:36
5'27"/km
18
1:39:06
5'30"/km
19
1:44:12
5'06"/km
20
1:52:14
8'02"/km
21
1:57:49
5'35"/km
22
2:03:10
5'21"/km
23
2:08:43
5'33"/km
24
2:14:08
5'25"/km
25
2:19:23
5'15"/km
26
2:24:32
5'09"/km
27
2:29:45
5'13"/km
28
2:35:05
5'20"/km
29
2:40:17
5'12"/km
30
2:44:42
4'25"/km
31
2:50:15
5'33"/km
32
2:55:53
5'38"/km
33
3:01:20
5'27"/km
34
3:06:29
5'09"/km

[kenmical]

Nice learning here...am not game for Sundown becos sleep cannot wait still lol. However maybe sleep can really wait next year and the above pointers will be good reference points when preparing for a night run.

[socrates]

Last week's training:

Monday: 11.5 km
Tuesday: 6.5 km and stopped by the rain
Wednesday: 11.6 km
Thursday: Rest
Friday: rest
Saturday: 4 hour run. Unfortunately iphone battery died before the end of my run so I do not know how far I went. I guess it should be around the 40 km mark. much tougher run compared to the week before, the last 50 mins, more aching knees, toes hurt as well, right hip also started to hurt but wanted to push on to 4 hrs.

Quick drink watercooler drink at 45 mins at Hougang stadium, 2 hr mark at sengkang hockey stadium and bought a 100 plus can at a pasir malam in Ang Mo Kio at 3 hr 7 min mark (tempted to buy a nice cooling cococnut from the pasir malam but it would look strange running with a coconut !

Sunday: Aching tighs and right hip a bit painful. Applied some deep heat and that helped. Went for what I call a 50 min recovery 9. 2 km run in the evening. nice cool weather after the rain.

This week i will do 10s to 12 km runs on 3 weekdays then perhaps a longer run of 18 km to 20 km to go and collect the run pack from the Expo on sat/sun. that should be my last long run before the sundown I guess.

Any comments or suggestions or advice for my training and runs? Thanks.

[philip]

1) Keep the intensity, hence no diff in pace.

2) Drop the mileage weekly by 20 -30%. Channel the biggest cut to your long runs.