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lonewolf

2XU Compression Run 2019 - 07 Apr (Sun)

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8 hours ago, beast said:

Pink Apple has been adopting the attitude of "If it is not an error on my side, I am not going to help fix it". Technically they are not in the wrong for "pushing the runners in the other direction" if it is not something to be blamed on their side, but as the event organizer they could have been more helpful to the runners. The transport app issue, and now this holding of results till they are paid.  Even if it does not make business sense to do so, they could have helped manage the runners as a form of goodwill, because it will help their brand in the long run. It is as if they couldn't care about the issues of the run at all.

Pink Apple has been very inconsistent in providing race quality since a long time ago. My suspicion is there has been a large change in management and stuff since their organization of the 2XU Marathon, which is the epitome of their race organization credentials. 

Maybe they themselves have not received the results, from the third party vendor (coz "contractual obligations" not met)?

Or are you saying Pink Apple and Racetime are the same company?

Edited by sicklycat

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11 hours ago, wonderfulblevic said:

Their answer is not unexpected what.  Which is why this kind of races, can never tell whether the course is accurate.  If you trust your watch, just use the average pace times 21.1km lor.  You want accurate distance, run 52 rounds a stadium lor.  Even then may not be accurate haha.

Refer to the image, I bet they plotted along the red lines which were not passable due to constructions along Tanjong Rhu water line. That's easily a difference of 300m+. Any decent organizer would have made adjustments. These are not blockages put up the week before.

2xu2019_route.png

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48 minutes ago, okw said:

Refer to the image, I bet they plotted along the red lines which were not passable due to constructions along Tanjong Rhu water line. That's easily a difference of 300m+. Any decent organizer would have made adjustments. These are not blockages put up the week before.

2xu2019_route.png

No. The Red Portion on the right is not part of the race course. 

The red portion on the left is probably negligible. Probably not more than 10-20m difference. 

Personally, I do not think what Pink Apple does is unreasonable. Given the variation of the course and the different GPS watch/apps used, it never surprised me at the wide range of distances recorded by different runners. 

Even for the IAAF Gold Label race like SCSM, the same issue will also occur. For a super-detailed discussion on how Gold Label course is measured, search for kohpapa's excellent dissertation on the same topic. Probably easier to just search for his post.

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59 minutes ago, okw said:

Refer to the image, I bet they plotted along the red lines which were not passable due to constructions along Tanjong Rhu water line. That's easily a difference of 300m+. Any decent organizer would have made adjustments. These are not blockages put up the week before.

2xu2019_route.png

This little “promenade “ is sth not favourable to those honest runners IMO. I think organisers should also try to avoid including into the “official route”. 

 If no check point there, there are many many ppl taking the shortcut.😉😉

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16 hours ago, beast said:

Uhhh I think you need to read more carefully.

I was saying that Pink Apple had their best race organization days in 2014, when they were good enough to even organize the 2XU marathon, which many had strong praises of. After 2014, their race organization for runs had been very on and off.

OK NOTED> THANK YOU FRIEND BEAST

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11 hours ago, sicklycat said:

Actually, why would they use bicycle to measure this route so accurately? Especially since they are not IAAF certified/ not going after Gold label?

I don't think anyone is expecting that, and Pink Apple is not obliged to do that. Which is why I wanted to know what exactly did YH90 ask and what is he expecting out of the question. 

I think it is fair that they map the distance online and then recee the route. The small loop around the promentory might have been done account after they realize there is quite a substantial distance different from what they planned initially.

 

12 hours ago, puppyrun said:

Next time all events organiser smart liao. They will use whatever online maps to map out an additional 500m of run to be safe. Then when got dispute from participants on why having to run the extra distance, they will reply that the complimentary 500m is a bonus given out to all participants without having to pay anything extra. No more short change complaints from runners. 😂

Still will have people KPKB coz PB not met due to longer distance. There is really no pleasing everyone.

 

11 hours ago, sicklycat said:

Maybe they themselves have not received the results, from the third party vendor (coz "contractual obligations" not met)?

Or are you saying Pink Apple and Racetime are the same company?

I don't know how the outsourcing of jobs in this case works.

My initial thought was that being the race organizer, Pink Apple had engaged Racetime, as part of their race management. But after this hoo-ha surfaced, I am inclined to think that Pink Apple only engaged Racetime on behalf of KPI, so when KPI does not pay Racetime in time the results are being held back by Racetime. When people go after Pink Apple for the race results, they "push it" back to KPI because they are not the one who has a contractual obligation with Racetime.

Not 100% sure of this theory, just my own speculation.

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I asked this as there are ppl who claimed pb due to the 'shorter' course then others say this PB these runners achieved is not justified.

There are ppl who measured just nice or abit too long. So the organiser also will headache lor.

 

Sorry guys for bringing in this kind of topic.

Edited by yh90

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57 minutes ago, yh90 said:

I asked this as there are ppl who claimed pb due to the 'shorter' course then others say this PB these runners achieved is not justified.

There are ppl who measured just nice or abit too long. So the organiser also will headache lor.

 

Sorry guys for bringing in this kind of topic.

No need to apologise (again) - we already established that it is OK to discuss about timings and distances here.

I think the question is why did you feel speechless about Pink Apple's answer? Were you expecting a different answer? 

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42 minutes ago, beast said:

No need to apologise (again) - we already established that it is OK to discuss about timings and distances here.

I think the question is why did you feel speechless about Pink Apple's answer? Were you expecting a different answer? 

I never thought they will use running apps to measure distance.i tot they will use pedometer or something.

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1 hour ago, yh90 said:

I never thought they will use running apps to measure distance.i tot they will use pedometer or something.

Well, they will need to plan out the route, no? What better and more convenient way to plan than to use apps that will calculate a rough distance? 

I have no idea why you would have this impression that they will use pedometer, which is a device for calculating the number of steps a person walks. Even if you are referring to the Jones Counter, I have no idea why you would assume they will do that, given that it is a tedious process of measuring distance.

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3 hours ago, yh90 said:

I asked this as there are ppl who claimed pb due to the 'shorter' course then others say this PB these runners achieved is not justified.

There are ppl who measured just nice or abit too long. So the organiser also will headache lor.

 

Sorry guys for bringing in this kind of topic.

Actually this topic you raised is quite interesting. Just most of our opinions is we don't expect the organiser to do measurement onsite if they are not certified. 

Now I am curious is whether SCSM iaaf certified is for all distances or just the 42km.

Edited by Ender

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6 minutes ago, Ender said:

Actually this topic you raised is quite interesting. Just most of our opinions is we don't expect the organiser to do measurement onsite if they are not certified. 

Now I am curious is whether SCSM iaaf certified is for all distances or just the 42km. 

Only scsm FM and HM are IAAF certified.

capture20190416143820459.png

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10 minutes ago, Ender said:

Actually this topic you raised is quite interesting. Just most of our opinions is we don't expect the organiser to do measure onsite if they are not certified. 

Now I am curious is whether SCSM iaaf certified is for all distances or just the 42km.

Only HM and FM.

https://media.aws.iaaf.org/competitioninfo/01664bab-af0a-44d6-a014-cd603492f592.pdf

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4 hours ago, yh90 said:

I never thought they will use running apps to measure distance.i tot they will use pedometer or something.

I share yh90's feelings. Even though it was not explicitly stated, my expectation was that a professional race organizer (charging participants over $50 per race) would use a more accurate method to measure race distance, rather than rely on running apps. Seeing their admission was shocking to me too. 

Personally speaking, i think it is important for all major race organizers to state the method of measuring the route (either GPS,  running apps or Jones Counter) in the FAQ section of their website, for the purpose of transparency.

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58 minutes ago, warp9wb said:

Personally speaking, i think it is important for all major race organizers to state the method of measuring the route (either GPS,  running apps or Jones Counter) in the FAQ section of their website, for the purpose of transparency.

I rather they tell me how many portaloos are available, how many bag deposit counters are available, what is the expected waiting time, etc. 😛 

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11 hours ago, beast said:

I don't know how the outsourcing of jobs in this case works.

My initial thought was that being the race organizer, Pink Apple had engaged Racetime, as part of their race management. But after this hoo-ha surfaced, I am inclined to think that Pink Apple only engaged Racetime on behalf of KPI, so when KPI does not pay Racetime in time the results are being held back by Racetime. When people go after Pink Apple for the race results, they "push it" back to KPI because they are not the one who has a contractual obligation with Racetime.

Not 100% sure of this theory, just my own speculation.

It should be your 2nd speculation. Coz someone shared screenshot of communications with Racetime on FB.

20190416_222607.png

Edited by sicklycat

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SO in seems that  problem is KPI not meet contractual agreement, likely payment.. They keep on having warehouse house these past few weeks. And they just had the closing down sale of 2XU store at Suntec.

 

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8 hours ago, warp9wb said:

I share yh90's feelings. Even though it was not explicitly stated, my expectation was that a professional race organizer (charging participants over $50 per race) would use a more accurate method to measure race distance, rather than rely on running apps. Seeing their admission was shocking to me too. 

Personally speaking, i think it is important for all major race organizers to state the method of measuring the route (either GPS,  running apps or Jones Counter) in the FAQ section of their website, for the purpose of transparency.

The most accurate way of measuring distance is the Jones Counter and I seriously doubt any race organizers bother with it. It makes no business sense to do it

As long as using running apps is the most convenient way of measuring distance, and its margin error is acceptable by most people, they will continue to do it.  I am sure they also do their diligence of checking the distance onsite.

I don't need organizers to state how they measure the route either. When you order chicken rice, do you ask the uncle to tell you how he prepares the chicken and the rice, for the purpose of transparency?

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6 hours ago, beast said:

I don't need organizers to state how they measure the route either. When you order chicken rice, do you ask the uncle to tell you how he prepares the chicken and the rice, for the purpose of transparency?

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO MAKE SENSE IN HERE. THANKS FRIEND BEAST.

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On 4/15/2019 at 5:20 PM, yh90 said:

Im speechless about this.

WhatsApp Image 2019-04-15 at 4.48.48 PM.jpeg

looking at the broken English reply...I think I know who is replying... :P

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7 hours ago, beast said:

The most accurate way of measuring distance is the Jones Counter and I seriously doubt any race organizers bother with it. It makes no business sense to do it

As long as using running apps is the most convenient way of measuring distance, and its margin error is acceptable by most people, they will continue to do it.  I am sure they also do their diligence of checking the distance onsite.

I don't need organizers to state how they measure the route either. When you order chicken rice, do you ask the uncle to tell you how he prepares the chicken and the rice, for the purpose of transparency?

Forgive me, i didnt know that race organisers are like that.

 

Edited by yh90

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Do not take runners as hostages !

Do not fall in the organizer's trap by diverting the "result yet to be published"  to race distance "dispute" to cover up their long internal saga!

I've participated since the inaugural 2XU until this year and  2XU Compression Run 2019 may be my last participation!

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7 hours ago, beast said:

The most accurate way of measuring distance is the Jones Counter and I seriously doubt any race organizers bother with it. It makes no business sense to do it

As long as using running apps is the most convenient way of measuring distance, and its margin error is acceptable by most people, they will continue to do it.  I am sure they also do their diligence of checking the distance onsite.

I don't need organizers to state how they measure the route either. When you order chicken rice, do you ask the uncle to tell you how he prepares the chicken and the rice, for the purpose of transparency?

 

1 hour ago, bookie said:

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO MAKE SENSE IN HERE. THANKS FRIEND BEAST.

I do care if they screw up the distance. Of course, it's up to the individual. I was involved in pacer duty awhile back and the pacers were asked to run the planned route (in this case, no road closure required), and we proposed how to make up for the shortfall. Eventually, they opted for logistics convenience at the expense of distance accuracy. In another event, the person responsible for the route did the run/ride himself, he was disappointed when told by runners one of the category distances was short, but spot on for the others.

Give a break to those who care about distance accuracy and measurement techniques, it's not wrong and not nonsense. As for the chicken rice analogy, if a consumer gets food poisoning after eating, he probably wants to know how the food was prepared, unless it doesn't bother him. :)

Edited by okw
incomplete submission earlier

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