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s35824

ChiRunning or Foreward Running?

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i have read about chi-running, Pose or Forward running, and now have been using minimalist shoes to change my running method to a foreward running style. have been doing this for last 3 years and found that this help me to increase my cadence thus speed. Anyone has experience benefits in any of this running method after changing from 'heel' running?

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I am still waiting for the POSE expert to speak about his experience.....

Personally i was converted (intentionally or unintentionally) from hell strike to more of mid foot strike... helped me towards reducing injury which i am really afraid of.. Kena twice.... 

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its a bit like tip-toe running.....with body leaning slightly forward.....not that forward .....but enough for u to have your feet land automaticaly to breakfall and same time propel forward (having no contact of the heel)...right?

 

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Chi Running technique uses gravity to create forward motion, landing mid-foot, and keeping the lower legs relaxed......it is believed by Danny Dreyer, inventor of Chi Running that this is the way of running with least impact and least risk on injury...

 

chi.gif


minimalist runners should be aware:

1. Posture – focus on good posture and relaxing..run tall without unnecessary effort

how to maintain a good posture? Practice Practice Practice! Stand in front of the mirror and straighten your upper body. Then, look down at your feet. If you are able to see your shoelaces, it’s a good indication that your dots are connected in a straight line and that you have the right posture.

since tight muscles can’t possibly get the needed amount of oxygen. The solution is simple: relax! To reach total relaxation, it helps to drop your shoulders, relax your gluts, and even more importantly lighten up and don’t take yourself too seriously.

2. Lean – reduce impact and allow gravity to take you forward..it's easy to over lean.

3. Ankle Lift –pick up your ankles to keep up with your forward fall

4. Arm Swing – maintain balance and momentum in your running

5. Avoid over striding - lighter on your feet..

6. Adopt a fast cadence - can download a metronome app for your phone that helps with cadence..Chi runners aim for 170-180 beats per minute. ...this works very well, but it does take time to get used to. 

Chi Running is a lot more on engaging Core Strength for propulsion....
 

chi2.jpg

so..based on movement principles of T'ai Chi, but you don’t need to know T’ai Chi to ChiRun.... you need to know is how using your core can transform your running:

1. Chi (pronounced "chee") is the energy that unites body, mind, and spirit.
2. Energy moves from your core (also known as your “center” or “dantien”) into the limbs to create movement.
3. Engaging your core and relaxing your limbs allows your legs to simply support your body weight instead of pushing or pulling it forward.
4. When your structure is aligned and your muscles and joints are relaxed, chi can flow freely through the body, making running feel effortless.

 

chi3.png

Chi running is a great method to help get this right...combines one’s inner focus and the flow of T’ai Chi with the power and energy of running to create a revolutionary form and philosophy that deals with the pounding pain and removes the potential damage out of running.

Traditional running methods emphasize conditioning, relying heavily on leg muscles during the running process...CR on the other hand, utilizes stronger and more efficient muscles, namely the core muscles which are mainly located in the belly and the mid and lower back. CR also teaches people the correct bio-mechanical running principles that are in line with the laws of physics combined with the ancient TaiChi movement techniques...by ainly depending on the core muscles..CR takes full advantage of the power of gravity.

The beauty of Chi running lies in its magnificent integration of body, mind, and spirit. ..conditioning the mind is as important as conditioning the body...CR is ideal for those who which to add a spiritual component to their fitness program because CR is essentially a very powerful meditative practice that focuses on enhancing self awareness and making the runners feel “One with the road”. 

10 Components of Good Running Technique

ChiRunning Simplified!, Efficient and Injury Free Natural Running Form Technique Video

Chi Running Video

Enjoy...uncle chi running...loh...

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9 hours ago, AutumnRunner said:

I am still waiting for the POSE expert to speak about his experience.....

Personally i was converted (intentionally or unintentionally) from heel strike to more of mid foot strike... helped me towards reducing injury which i am really afraid of.. Kena twice.... 

I feel flattered for being called the expert since I am doing my best to teach people interested and willing to reprogram their faulty running technique. Just to clarify, Mid-foot strike in reality is difficult to reproduce and tough to land at the anatomical definition of mid-foot (depends how one defines it). This video from posetv explains what a mid-foot strike is and the misconceptions most people will have. Please watch it. 

Not to be a crow mouth, you are putting strain on your knee by forcing a mid foot landing.  The precise landing point should be on your ball of foot :)

Watch these two YouTube videos from posetv for simple explanations on running concepts and also the components (anatomy) of a foot stride.

 

5 hours ago, s35824 said:

its a bit like tip-toe running.....with body leaning slightly forward.....not that forward .....but enough for u to have your feet land automaticaly to breakfall and same time propel forward (having no contact of the heel)...right?

That is a misconception. Pose Method® of Running is not tip toe running and to correct your conceptual understanding, the lean will happen when one allows the body to fall forward. To really sum it up, Pose Method® of Running is a systematic way to approach running as a technique sports and learning to use gravity to propel forward instead of current sports science trend of knee drive, push off and increasing stride length which these 3 actions are not needed.  You can read this Pose Method® website to have a quick overview what Pose Method® of Running is about at  https://posemethod.com/running/#!event-list

To see how a Pose Method® of Running is executed by elite runners, have a look at this YouTube video and watch Michael Johnson previous world record 200 metres running form which is representative of efficient running.

Feel free to ask me more questions about Pose Method® and I do my best to answer them :)

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was going thru some videos and i saw one video mentioned that if you practice POSE, you would run at 180spm... is that  true? so meaning those who runs around this spm, he/she might already be using POSE unknowingly.

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26 minutes ago, AutumnRunner said:

was going thru some videos and i saw one video mentioned that if you practice POSE, you would run at 180spm... is that  true? so meaning those who runs around this spm, he/she might already be using POSE unknowingly.

Just to clarify, even if you can run at a cadence of 180 steps per minute,it doesn't make you a POSE runner as you need to master the 3 elements of pose ,fall and pull (influences cadence) and continue to reproduce without losing your form.

The 180 spm is the minimum number to trigger muscle tendon elasticity (pardon the technical term). Simply put,you use lesser muscle force, taps into elasticity and let gravity do the falling for the runner. With enough technique and drills training, 180 spm is easily achievable.

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6 hours ago, s35824 said:

its a bit like tip-toe running.....with body leaning slightly forward.....not that forward .....but enough for u to have your feet land automaticaly to breakfall and same time propel forward (having no contact of the heel)...right?

 

From past experiment & experience, tip toe running will cause very sore calf & put achilles tendon in high stress. From research, one has to strike on mid foot (ball of your foot) then have a very soft or light or near heel touch so to release the pressure of the achilles. For this reason, running shoe's heel drop become a very important factor. 

Cheers, juz my 2 cents thoughts ...

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thanks trailblazar for the videos, seems like i am in the right 'track' :D after watching those videos. :clapping:

nightknight1976 - agree with you, initially when started running with minimalist shoes, calf were sore. now changing to forefoot strike(according to the first video)with minimalist shoes i have less backache now....maybe because of my tradition heel-strike running for the last 20years :(

 

 

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9 hours ago, nightknight1976 said:

From past experiment & experience, tip toe running will cause very sore calf & put achilles tendon in high stress. From research, one has to strike on mid foot (ball of your foot) then have a very soft or light or near heel touch so to release the pressure of the achilles. For this reason, running shoe's heel drop become a very important factor. 

Cheers, juz my 2 cents thoughts ...

Barefoot running is great for technique training, but landing on the small bones of your feet (aka tip toe running), particularly if running on hard surfaces such as roads or concrete, can cause bruising and/or cuts to the sole of the foot from stones or unseen glass. ...bruising in particular can be a problem, as if they don’t heal fully between runs, can lead on to metatarsal stress fractures. ..mostly 2nd metatarsal overload syndrome (one of the causes on the Ball of Foot Pain).

why this is a problem?..because these are very painful, will have you off the road for 4-6 weeks and can cause long term damage to your foot... tiptoe1.gif

another reason..during the gait cycle (walking or barefoot run cycle) the foot must transfer the weight from the heel to the forefoot...the calf muscle contracts and helps push the foot off the ground and propel the body forward. When the Achilles tendon and calf muscles are tight, this causes the heel to rise early and the foot to rotate out which increases the abnormal stress through the midfoot and increases abnormal pronation...these forces contribute to midfoot collapse, elevation of the first ray and transfer of weight to the lesser metatarsal phalangal joints (MPJs).

tiptoe2.gif

so adopting a proper barefoot running technique.....is important....POSE Method of running?.. or..ChiRunning?

chipose.jpg

POSE is a method that teaches a specific running technique that results in a forefoot strike..and the running technique.. simply is Pose-Fall-Pull-Landing

to get into the Pose..as defined in the Pose Method, is a position that is stable against gravity...or the "figure 4" position while running...

pose.gif

Fall...one moves forward by falling forward...from the Pose, the the runner leans forward with his or her hips and letting gravity pull him or her forward using gravitational torque...the further the runner leans forward, the more off-balance he or she is, and the more off-balance he or she is, the more gravity can pull him or her forward, and the faster he or she moves forward...

pose1.gif

Pull...the process of recovering from the Fall in order to re-enter the Pose..."Pull” directly describes the action of the rear leg....there is more to recovering from the Fall than action of the rear leg, but the action of the rear leg is what the runner should focus on...

The Speed of the Pull: If you accept that falling is primary way runners move forward, then it is important to understand that any weight behind the center line of your body is a counter balance to falling. So the longer you leave your trailing leg behind you when you run, the more of a counter balance there is, and your ability to fall forward is diminished. This is why it is important to pull you trailing leg up as fast as possible, it's to eliminate as much counter balance as possible.

The Height of the Pull: The faster you run the higher you pull your foot. When jogging, a runner should only pull his or her foot a few inches from the ground. When sprinting, a runner should pull his or her foot up as high as possible. The higher you pull your foot the higher your center of gravity is, and the higher your center of gravity, the easier it is to fall. So by varying the height of the pull, you can help to control your speed. You should never pull higher than necessary to accommodate the pace you wish to run, or you will be using more energy than necessary. 

The Position of the Pull: In Pose Running you pull your foot up directly into the position of the Pose. The reason for this is that it places as much weight in front of you as possible, making it easier to fall. The Pose is a position that eliminates counter balance to falling. The faster you reach this position the more efficiently you can fall forward. 

Landing..after performing the Pose Running Fall and the Pose Running Pull correctly, the landing will happen quite naturally. The runner will land on the ball of his or her foot, underneath his or her hips or the general center of mass (also referred to as the GCM)..when running one should always feel light on one's feet...any feeling of hitting the ground hard, or any loud noises when landing probably means that the runner is rushing to put his or her foot to the ground...timing is everything.

so..Pose Method of running..is actually a sequence starting with the Pose moving into the Fall, then into the Pull (Transition), then to the Landing and then back to the Pose... 

pose3.gif

Pose Running Video

Trailblazer, "The 180 spm is the minimum number to trigger muscle tendon elasticity (pardon the technical term). Simply put,you use lesser muscle force, taps into elasticity and let gravity do the falling for the runner. With enough technique and drills training, 180 spm is easily achievable."

yes...practice the drills...

Learning to Run, Pose Method of Running (includes HM or FM)

Enjoy Chi-Pose...Barefoot running..Coach kohpapa (IAAF CECS Level 1)

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20 hours ago, AutumnRunner said:

Personally i was converted (intentionally or unintentionally) from hell strike to more of mid foot strike... helped me towards reducing injury which i am really afraid of.. Kena twice.... 

OUCH..Injury...

injury.jpg

"Uncle the Runner (that's me) had suffered Plantar Fasciitis and Heel Spur... and hence.. adopted barefoot running since then"..and this visual..explains why..the reason..injury because of wearing shoes..

yes..shoes with poor arch support or soft soles..Plantar Fasciitis is inflammation of the thick tissue on the bottom of the foot..which connecting the calf muscles to the heel..also caused by drastic or sudden increases in mileage, poor foot structure..all endurance distance runners most common injury..

yes..wearing shoes that have a cushioned heel that absorbs shock..but if that shock does not protect the heel.. then Heel Spur develops as an abnormal growth of the heel bone..and heel bone is the largest bone in the foot and absorbs the most shock and pressure..

yes.. black toenails caused by constant rubbing of your toe against the front of your shoe..blood blister forms under the nail, and the blister can't breathe..

so.. some come out with minimalist barefoot shoes.. 

minimalist.jpg

 

many have always say..complete barefoot can or not?.. of course, yes..but..what if ground has nails..spikes..untreated soil with possible risk of infection..then..not recommended..

so uncle..

minimalist2.jpg

shoik lah.. no nails..sometimes doggie poo...and those spiky drops from trees..

and since Uncle the Runner..also do Triathlon.. Swim-Bike-Run.. Run with covered shoes is a must..the rule of no barefoot no run .. so Uncle ran with sandals..Sole with minimal support..and..when go muddy place.. can wash mud away at nearby ponds..or roadside puddle of water.. uncle splash silly on water..

notice that.. minimalist barefoot shoe has.. less cushion at the sole..unlike regular thick foam sole shoes..and.. less support at the heel..and of course.. the material is less and "breathable"..and the advantage is..obvious..lightweight..compared to cushioned shoes..

now where will be better for barefoot..meaning with minimalist barefoot "shoes".. gym, maybe running on threadmill.. some on indoor/outdoor grass..trail running.. stadium track..

runners or althletes..phasing into barefoot running.. the initial process is going to be painful one.. because if the first time with barefoot running (meaning with complete barefoot or mimimalist shoes)... the sole of foot will suffer blister due to less or no cushion on ground...next the calf muscle shall feel cramp due to "strenghening" of muscles..meaning if wear shoes..certain group of muscles are weak..hence barefoot runner call them.. wake up those years of inactive sleep muscles in leg..also..feeling to the ground..and so the barefoot runners' famous quotation..RUN FREE..is like Baby's First Barefoot Step..sensation of the nerves and the rejuvenation of inactive muscles of foot suddenly bursting to touch and grow...yap..shall expect barefoot running feet perform unlimited growth..maybe 1/2 size bigger after months of barefoot running.. some claim 1 size bigger..others claim grow like godzilla legs 

minimalist3.jpg

yes...actually your legs grew stronger..legs see and breathe "sunlight" - a natural source of Vitamin D ...breathe fresh natural air instead of hide in the socks..rain (socks wet)...legs take a cooling and wet break...why not...

Enjoy Transition to Barefoot running..Coach kohpapa (IAAF CECS Level 1)

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, nightknight1976 said:

From past experiment & experience, tip toe running will cause very sore calf & put achilles tendon in high stress. From research, one has to strike on mid foot (ball of your foot) then have a very soft or light or near heel touch so to release the pressure of the achilles. For this reason, running shoe's heel drop become a very important factor. 

Cheers, juz my 2 cents thoughts ...

Yes, when I started to ditch the heel striking methodology, I also have very sore calves and tight Achilles tendon till it got inflamed and injured....

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.Heel Striking explained...with shoes..

Running Without Shoes1.PNG

foot striking impact (force) with running shoes : tick..<clark>..tick..<clark>

with barefoot or no shoes:

Running Without Shoes2.png

slap...<silence>...slap...<silence>

so barefoot runners whether running barefoot or with minimalist shoes such as vibram or sports sandals.. will always feel that <silence> or "absent" impact...the impact or <clark> will be the cushion impact from the running shoes...because the leg in barefoot running..actually executes the 100% pounding force (reaction is of course uplift - Newton's Third Law of Motion)..meaning..100% running...

technically...the legs..pound 100%...lift reaction from the ground is 100%...now like shoes..legs cushioned with shoes...60-70% <clark>...actually leg muscles no need to "pound" 100%...

In transition to barefoot running from not wearing cushioned shoes...certain muscles of legs will start to ache (not pain) because of the new experiences of 100% pounding force...and this what barefoot runner always claim.."wake up those years of inactive sleep muscles in leg".."born to be free"..

particularly..calf muscle shall feel cramp due to "strenghtening" of these inactive muscles..because..calf muscle has to work more than 100% of wearing no shoes..meanwhile growth and recovery of those "inactive sleep muscles" takes place..muscle build and repair..normally 36-hour or more.. 

minimalist4.jpg

another sensation will be the nerves of the sole feels closer to the ground (minimalist shoes) or ground zero (barefoot).. and so chi-running barefoot running becomes the ying/yang philosophical thing..closer to nature.."feel light run light"...running almost with free "chi" from the ground...scrubbing and washing of feet on soles..the nerves endings.. feel just like massaging..

However, there is a caveat...improper technique or drill of whether chi-/POSE running for barefooting converts...

This animation assumes that the load of your body is being leveraged by the forefoot and the Metatarsals.The running technique that people are landing too much with the forefoot and pushing off due to too much toe-off. Many people with minimalist shoes are also landing more on their forefoot (to cushion the shock of landing) which also adds stress to the metatarsals. It's a matter of impact upon landing and therefore has a multiple factor of body weight backing up the force to the forefoot. So perhaps switch to mid-foot strike and will be much better.

pose4.gif

Likely summary:

POSE and ChiRunning are two programs that aim to teach runners to run with greater efficiency and reduced injuries...both programs are widely supported among barefoot runners....have fiercely loyal followers...

Dr. Romanov, a Ph.D. sports scientist and coach within the dominant Soviet Union athletics system of the 1970s—set out to identify, through the prism of physics, the critical elements that made for the best way to run...the Pose Method summarised as a blend of using gravity through falling forward and shifting supports by “dropping the feet directly under the body as you move forward.”..Pose, Fall, Pull (Transition), Landing..

Chi running was created in the US in 1999 by Danny Dreyer. Inspired by the Chinese martial art of tai chi, Dreyer's technique is popular with beginners and injured runners, and works on the principle that running with a forward-leaning relaxed posture, an engaged core and fast strides, light steps leads to less stress on the body, a more efficient style and fewer injuries.


Caveat (Warning): Just because you run in minimalist shoes, doesn't automatically mean you're running correctly. Unless you learn to reduce your impact with the ground at the end of every stride, you'll always be at risk for injury. It's running technique, not shoes, that make the difference in injury-prevention.

Lastly, just followup with a little get-together meeting here in this forum after more than 2 years...trailblazer..

minimalist5.jpg

Enjoy..Injury-prevention..Run with Pain Free...Proper Drill and Technique...Shoe or No Shoe.. Coach kohpapa (IAAF CECS Level 1)

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Once again, need to give kohpapa the credits and patience to explain these concepts which people tend to just have sketchy understanding, leading to running having high injury rate for runners. We need to remember that our technique needs fixing before we can even talk about increasing run volume. Prischew also interviewed me on what POSE Method of Running is about. Visit this blog link here

lu696jbu5r90iyjzg.jpg?size_id=5

Source: Dr Romanov Training Essays Volume 1 (Chapter on perception). When we run, we don't focus on foot landing. The falling and pulling elements are then what we should be doing properly.

6o4kawbazwgw5v6zg.jpg?size_id=6

Pose Fall Pull Inforgraphic

 

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Pose Method® Running (Level 1) Coach Trailblazer,

Wah.. that that should be the real coaching title appropriate for you...uncle congratulates and respects you.

Uncle may not be a specialist in Pose Method® Running, but definitely, uncle has been "interned" in chi-running by a Master Trainer.

Yes, you're official a certified Coach specialist in Pose Method® Running...and you have the knowledge and experience to share training program for those who need your service. Of course, free for sgRunners, right?

Good luck and best wishes...

SGCoach (*Inactive) kohpapa (IAAF CECS Level 1)...*Inactive because uncle broke cannot pay renewal fee...broke also cannot afford to attend sports talks and paid seminars...but anything free...uncle grabs.

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2 hours ago, kohpapa said:

Pose Method® Running (Level 1) Coach Trailblazer,

Wah.. that that should be the real coaching title appropriate for you...uncle congratulates and respects you.

Uncle may not be a specialist in Pose Method® Running, but definitely, uncle has been "interned" in chi-running by a Master Trainer.

Yes, you're official a certified Coach specialist in Pose Method® Running...and you have the knowledge and experience to share training program for those who need your service. Of course, free for sgRunners, right?

Good luck and best wishes...

SGCoach (*Inactive) kohpapa (IAAF CECS Level 1)...*Inactive because uncle broke cannot pay renewal fee...broke also cannot afford to attend sports talks and paid seminars...but anything free...uncle grabs.

Thanks for the encouragement! I still have lots to do and lonely journey here!  If you are talking about training program, most of the runners here should be quite proficient in creating one lah haha. I can babble more on the Pose Method® Running theory here if anyone is interested. However, doing video analysis of running forms and hands on teaching can't be free lah :)  If got any good sports talks or seminars worth to go, can consider but subjected to time availability.

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1 hour ago, trailblazer said:

Thanks for the encouragement! I still have lots to do and lonely journey here!  If you are talking about training program, most of the runners here should be quite proficient in creating one lah haha. I can babble more on the Pose Method® Running theory here if anyone is interested. However, doing video analysis of running forms and hands on teaching can't be free lah :)  If got any good sports talks or seminars worth to go, can consider but subjected to time availability.

if talking anything about running, I am sure you aren't lonely here... :lol:

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13 hours ago, AutumnRunner said:

if talking anything about running, I am sure you aren't lonely here... :lol:

Depends which aspects of running you wish to talk about lah. If talking about the tangibles, you have many to keep you company.

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coach tbz,

uncle berly interested more in Pose Method® of Running.. for free here...that's why uncle returned "home" here..

can you discuss more on speed training..and injury prevention like strength and agility, resistance...

SGCoach (*Inactive) kohpapa (IAAF CECS Level 1)...aiya so long title...jus coach kpp will do...

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6 hours ago, kohpapa said:

coach tbz,

uncle berly interested more in Pose Method® of Running.. for free here...that's why uncle returned "home" here..

can you discuss more on speed training..and injury prevention like strength and agility, resistance...

SGCoach (*Inactive) kohpapa (IAAF CECS Level 1)...aiya so long title...jus coach kpp will do...

For Pose Method® of Running, see it as a paradigm shift from how one approaches running conventionally (knee drives, unneeded arm pumping etc). At best, I can only give a summary which I do need people seriously wanting to learn Pose Method® of Running to get and read the books, watch the posetv YouTube videos. There is no shortcut to it here :) 

Good starting point is the Running Revolution book at http://runningrevolutionbook.com/ (see it as a workbook for one to use in much simpler non technical language), the Pose Method® of Running book (first edition which explains the theory in-depth with well written sections) and the Pose Method® of Triathlon which uses a more technical approach to explain the multi-sports (focus on the running section). I will start up a new thread on Pose Method® of Running as I used to talk about it few years ago at this archived thread --> http://www.sgrunners.com/forum/index.php?/topic/15471-pose-technique/

 

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wow....lots of technical info from uncle.....how about conducting a small met up and help us to check if we run correctly ^_^  been running....minimalist, noticed cadence went up thus heart rate goes up too and speed too, but don't feel tired....not sure if good thing.

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1 hour ago, s35824 said:

wow....lots of technical info from uncle.....how about conducting a small met up and help us to check if we run correctly ^_^  been running....minimalist, noticed cadence went up thus heart rate goes up too and speed too, but don't feel tired....not sure if good thing.

wah.... cadence goes up, thus speed goes up but not tired... sounds good.... but when heart rate goes up, it depends it goes up till which number... maybe your baseline is 50% of your max heart rate and with higher speed, HR goes to 60-70% of max HR and don't feel tired, then you are still on the right track...

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